Acceptance

[00:00:00] Mark: Whether life's disabilities left you outcast, bullied, or teased. Rejoice and love yourself today cuz Baby, you were born this way. Lady Gaga has some wisdom for us.

[00:00:13] Anya: to be fair. She does.

[00:00:14]

[00:00:14] Mark: Welcome to the A to Z of Happiness, with Anya Pearse and me Mark Steadman. Join us as we unpack the science of happiness, one letter at a time. This week, it's A for acceptance.

[00:00:33] This is, this is the second call of about four calls for today.

[00:00:37] Anya: Oh gosh.

[00:00:39] Mark: Um, but the most important and, uh,

[00:00:41] Anya: bless you.

[00:00:43] Mark: Yes, I am feeling, I went for my stroll this morning. I was very proud of myself because I for went, um, a late night in front of, I'm a celebrity to get me out of here so that I would be ready, um, for, so that I could have my walk slightly earlier in the morning to get to my nine o'clock appointment and then, uh, and then have plenty of time for this.

[00:01:07] So I've made good decisions today. How.

[00:01:09] Anya: you, you have, you have, I think you have already won Friday, uh, in, in my books. I, I am, I'm gonna use my usual thing of the internal weather thing, and my internal weather is a little bit foggy. Actually. I am. Uh, I've had a productive week. I was gonna say busy. Um, but that too, but also productive. A lot has been happening and I've been making the, uh, special attempt to actually register what I've been doing, um, with journaling each evening and just going, oh, so that thing where I go to bed and think, no, I haven't done anything.

[00:01:47] It's like, no, that's a, is a blatant lie. Um, and so I am. I'm here, I'm bringing as much of me as I can to this. Um, I'm excited to find out what's gonna happen next. Uh, cuz I haven't, I haven't got a Scooby folks. Um, but yeah, just, just, I, I'm looking forward to just hanging out, playing and just seeing what happens.

[00:02:12] Mark: Perfect. Well, today we're talking about acceptance. Why are we talking about acceptance today?

[00:02:21] Anya: well, Kind of a couple of reasons really. I wanna kind of start off with, uh, a story. Um, gosh, it must be about five or six years ago now. Uh, a friend of mine. Had a premier party in his back garden for a short film he'd made. And you know it was local. Yeah, yeah. Humble bag. Yeah. Actually, I'm one of the actors in it, a lead actor in it.

[00:02:51] Um, I won't mention his name, but he's been like, like the villain in Death in Paradise. He had a close up in Star Wars. He was in a major. Glossy I v drama, I'll, I'll send you the deeds in private afterwards. Um, and

[00:03:09] Mark: Swimming in refined circles.

[00:03:11] Anya: what I, I, I mean, I mean I, I, I sat next door to the circle. I think the c the circle, the circle was happening whether I

[00:03:17] Mark: saw the circle

[00:03:18] Anya: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:03:19] I knew the, I knew the circle was occurring, um, and, you know, I was chatting to this, this, this, this, this young actor and another one about stuff in the garden. And, you know, it was getting dark later, not middle of the summer and, and I, you know, I, I've been having a good day of it. And then, , it came on me really, really fast.

[00:03:40] I hit the wall. So listeners, um, I have, uh, chronic fatigue syndrome, uh, also known as me. And so I considered myself like a crap early smartphone, really entertaining for a couple of hours. But the battery life is shy. Um, and I went from like, you know, a good 20% to like, like 1%. Like, and you needed to like phone your mom for a Lyft home, sort of situ.

[00:04:05] And I couldn't stand, I couldn't walk. Um, I became as what my friend, my lovely friend Helen describes as a team building exercise Cause like, to be fair, I don't know why there were some strong people in the room. Why someone didn't pick, did do like just go fuck dignity. I'll just pick 'em up and carry her.

[00:04:32] Mark: No, the pro, the problem was someone else was looking for a bag of grain and someone else was off looking for a chicken

[00:04:39] Anya: Pretty much. Um, and yeah, so try, you know, it took me, you know, it was a group effort, effort to get me from the garden into the living room, which was all of about two meters. Um, and then, you know, getting me into the hall where my shoes were and getting me out the door and stuff. And I remember. There was a point when I was leaning against the ballisters of the stairs.

[00:05:09] Uh, we went downstairs, I was leaning against it, and I could just feel this huge wave of shame come over me because while I was with a couple of friends, there were strangers also helping me, people who I didn't know. Um, and one of them was offering to. Get my shoes and put them on my feet. And there were whole different elements of acceptance in this story.

[00:05:41] Um, one was, can I accept what's happening to me right now? You know, I can, I accept that I need help. Um, can I accept that help from stranger? Can I

[00:06:01] Mark: I'm already tense thinking about it. Don't like it.

[00:06:06] Anya: Yeah. Uh,

[00:06:08] Mark: the next story, aren't you,

[00:06:09] Anya: yeah. Okay. Um, moving, I, I'm getting there. Um, accepting, accepting the feeling of shame, actually. And, and, you know, I'm a big fan of Brene Brown's work, and, and I just said out loud, whew. Just feeling a big wave of shame coming over me. Right. . I actually articulated out it out loud to people and they were like, whew.

[00:06:31] Yeah, no, you've got nothing to be feel ashamed for. And I said, yeah, yeah, I know this and I'm still feeling it, and like, this is why I'm articulating it,

[00:06:39] Mark: so valuable. I've, I've found I've only had occasion to do that once or twice, and to be able to say the feeling out loud. Feel, you know, with say the embarrassing thing out loud seems so valuable.

[00:06:54] Anya: It is, it is cuz what I also had to accept in that moment was not just my vulnerability, but also my power in that situation. Because the way that I accepted it became the benchmark, the, the model for how other people accepted it.

[00:07:16] Mark: Mm.

[00:07:16] Anya: And so if the more I more comfortable I was with what's going? . The more I could see other people panic less and just go, okay, so Right.

[00:07:29] What, what's the next task we need to do? And so, yeah, the, it was, it was a real challenge of being faced with, you know, just like half an hour, an hour earlier. I was laughing, joking, being, being funny and insightful. And, uh, I mean, I'm gonna say this, I'm sure no one else from the in the room would've said it a little bit hot.

[00:07:52] Kind of, you know, cause I, I, I, I have a little something going on. Yeah. Uh, and, and to be then, you know, very palpably, disabled, you know, um, and to kind of accept in that moment, you know, if not that identity, certainly the fact that, um, by accepting the situation, My internal experience of it and other people's presence and the impact it had on them that made an experience which could very easily be shameful into something which I'm now sharing now as a moment of, I don't wanna say pride, but you know, I can respect Miss ownership.

[00:08:45] Yeah, ownership. I can respect.

[00:08:48] Mark: mm-hmm.

[00:08:49] Anya: you know, and so for me, when I was, look, I, I would love to say, oh, you know, I've chosen acceptance because, you know, I'm a big fan of acceptance and commitment training and psychological flexibility, and I will Wang on about that, you know, shortly. But ultimately what's been the biggest impact has been the self-acceptance has been.

[00:09:17] the ability to embrace something that is uncomfortable or at least be with something that's uncomfortable, um, and invite it to unfold with more grace.

[00:09:32] Mark: The, uh, the serenity to, um, not try and change what you, uh, what, what can't be changed? Um, I know I'm butchering the, I'm butchering

[00:09:41] Anya: oh, the, the, the Serenity Prayer. Yeah. God, grant me the wisdom to, uh, accept the, be able to accept things. I I can't change the courage to change what I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

[00:09:52] Mark: Yeah.

[00:09:53] Anya: And sometimes the, the, the, the, the thing that we can change in those situations is our relationship. Two eight, which is where the acceptance piece kind of comes in.

[00:10:05] Mark: So there are a few types of acceptance here that that, that we're talking about because there is the very literal accepting of help from someone, but there is the accepting that you have to ask help from someone.

[00:10:22] Anya: Oh, so many times I'm blanche to bar relying on a lot kindness of strangers,

[00:10:28] Mark: and, and just, yeah. And, and, and the, the, the wisdom again, I think to, to sort of know that that is or the, the, the self-kindness to know that, that that's okay because you know, nothing, I dunno about, about you in, in this regard, but like, nothing makes me more uncomfortable really, you know, than, than having to then, then having a boo, having a booboo.

[00:10:53] Anya: Yeah.

[00:10:54] Mark: and then a stranger coming and clearing it up. It's, it's very infantilizing like when you fall over. Um, and, and, and then you know, someone, someone rushes over to check that you are okay and dust you off, and you sort of just wanna go, no, I just wanna, wanna sit in a room and play with my toys for a bit.

[00:11:13] Anya: But Yeah, but I mean, cuz that was the bit like of, of the story. You know, again, there was, you know, he might get me past the stairwell to the bottom of the stairs where I could at least sit down and, you know, having. Someone puts your footwear on for you, takes you back straight back to being a kid.

[00:11:31] Mark: Yeah.

[00:11:32] Anya: You know, I, I remember saying to this, this, this, this, this beautiful young man.

[00:11:36] Thanks Mom.

[00:11:38] Mark: I mean, yeah, you, you've, you've gotta, there's, there's, there's a flip side to that, which is interesting cause I've, I've been in a couple of occasions. So as a, uh, as, as a visually impaired person, there are moments where, people feel like it's okay to do stuff for you without asking

[00:11:55] Anya: yeah.

[00:11:56] Mark: if you want them to do things for you. And there's one I remember from years ago, and it's a, it was only a tiny little incident, it was like 20 years ago. But it's just sticks in my head of, um, being a, being a a little house party and, um, opening or trying to open a bottle of beer with a bottle.

[00:12:17] Anya: hmm.

[00:12:17] Mark: And there can sometimes be a little bit fiddly.

[00:12:19] You've gotta line it all up and there's a little bit of hand eye coordination there. It's not that complex, but, you know, it maybe took me a couple of goes and the guy just took the bottle and the, and the, and the bottle opener from me and just went, there you go. And it's handed me me back, at which point I'm supposed to go.

[00:12:35] Thanks. I mean, you coulda gimme an extra second. You know, there's, there's a thing about people thrusting help upon you that you, that you didn't ask for, but there is a very different thing from, from knowing that you, that you do need that help and having the courage maybe even to, to ask for it.

[00:12:56] Anya: Yeah. Yeah, and I think this is one of the reasons why people find acceptance so difficult. and accepting, um, what's that? Uh, denial is not just a river in Africa. Um,

[00:13:11] Mark: or Egypt,

[00:13:12] Anya: Oh, Egypt. Sorry. Yeah. Um, it's, um,

[00:13:17] it invites, invites the next step and we may not be comfortable with what's next. Um, If I'm in a bad relationship where I'm only receiving breadcrumbs, but I don't accept it, then I don't have to make the difficult decision of whether it's I should stay or I should go. Um, if I am in, if I'm doing in a, in a.

[00:13:56] Which leaves me depleted and defeated and exhausted. I don't have to accept fully the effect it's having on my health because if I do, then that almost necessitates me taking action to either. Engage with work in a way to remedy it, you know, put up boundaries or to find alternative employment. And they're gonna be, and we, you know, we may resist accepting the fact that, um, or we may hold, you know, the alternatives.

[00:14:35] We, we claim onto things for fear of, you know, we might hold onto that job because we hold onto the belief that there's nothing else out there. The same with a bad relat. You know, we accept, we, that's there's a phrase which I keep trying to find the source for, and I've, my Google foo has failed me so far.

[00:14:58] Um, we only accept the truth that we can bear.

[00:15:03] Mark: Hmm.

[00:15:06] Anya: And I think the flip side of this is in accepting. You know, going back, going back to my little story, which is gonna make you rinse, um, I, I, there was also a grief there in that I was not able to be fully independent, which, you know, is a core part of most people's identity. You know, myself included being self-sufficient, you know, and I think, you know, not being able to.

[00:15:41] Where we are in life and that we may need support or change or community or love can trigger a grief that we're not in receipt of those things already.

[00:15:58] Mark: Yes. It's, it's, it's like suddenly acknowledging that something was missing without having realized, you know, it, it was always missing, but. We hadn't, you hadn't realized that it was, and then suddenly you feel it's . I guess I might come to this analogy a a lot, but it's, uh, it's like Wiley Coyote running off the cliff, and it's not until he looks down that he realizes that he's suspended in mid-air.

[00:16:26] Um, and, and so yeah, there's maybe, maybe an aspect of that that sort of, you didn't realize the, you know, the, the. You dunno what you've got until it's gone sort of thing. Um, and, and then that, that becomes something that you have to mourn for or to grief for.

[00:16:41] Anya: Yeah. And you know, we're not, we're not terribly good as a society about grief. You know, there's, um, It'll be in the show notes. I, I'll, I'll, I'll put, I'll put it down. It was, um, a lovely conversation, which I haven't listened to for a while, but I want to re-listened to again between Charles Eisenstein and Francis Weller, who holds grief circles.

[00:17:04] And he has a book, um, the Wild Edge of Sorrow. And I'm often talking about, you know, I, I often mangle a quote that I take, I've taken from that podcast, which is, you know, we. The work of the mature adult is to hold, uh, gratitude in one hand and grief in the other, and to be stretched large by both. Um, I believe that's the full quote.

[00:17:25] And you know, he talks about how it's really hard. We try and do. Again, it's that self-reliance, you know, we try and be the griever and the container for the grief, and actually we need others a lot of the time to be able to. Be the container for us to just purely have the con the, the experience, the emotion.

[00:17:51] Um,

[00:17:52] Mark: Can you speak to me about what, uh, what a container.

[00:17:58] Anya: yeah, it's,

[00:18:00] It's someone who can provide that emotional res uh, support and, um, energy and relationship and allow you to be fully okay. Cuz quite often what we do is we are afraid to feel the full range of our emotion. Because we don't, it feels too much for us to hold as ourselves and actually just having someone else.

[00:18:36] The, the, the best analogy I can think of right now, and it's, and I'm kind of like taking it slightly sideways, is what Tara Black calls about, this idea of expanding. Like her thing of expanding the container. And if I had a glass, I'm, I'm, uh, only, only live viewers will see this. Uh, but I've got a glass of water here in front of me, and if I dropped a cartridge of ink, squirted the cartridge of ink in this, the whole of the water would go black.

[00:19:04] But if I then poured this glass of water into a bathtub of water, that would then dilute if I then tipped that bathtub of water into a swimming. He tipped into the ocean, it would still contain the same amount of ink, but the container that it's being held in, the space it holds is being, being held by, is expanded.

[00:19:28] And then that's when I think about someone, you know, like when I think about the bird container, I, that's why I think it's useful to have and other, or others so that they can provide that kind of energetic support so that, Silently. They're like, you know, you've got this and I've got you. And so how, whatever happens, however your experience manifests, just let, you don't have to hold yourself together anymore.

[00:19:57] That's the thing. That's what I keep on thinking of. You can just let yourself go actually, and very often I think Techn Han says, you know, the way out is, Very often so many of us get caught in this tension around accepting and not accepting because we don't allow ourselves to go into what that might fully mean for us with the trust and the support to ensure that we can come out the other side and to know that the other side is always a possible, always available.

[00:20:32] Mark: So you've mentioned, uh, acceptance and commitment training, uh, and the, and the many, and the many wonders. Well, I'm aware of some of the, some of the wonders that, that it offers.

[00:20:47] Anya: Ooh. Is this where I get to, to, to, to geek out like a proper, like a Gooden?

[00:20:52] Mark: You say geek out. I was gonna say pros ties, but

[00:20:55] Anya: Ties Well, yeah. I

[00:20:56] Mark: Absolutely.

[00:20:58] Anya: oh, this, this is where Anya gets the nerd out. Awesome. Lemme just take a sip. . Mm. So I, I, I, I, I mean, okay, so let me put into this, this into context. Self-compassion will always be my true love. Um, this is again where this idea of accept. As, as this opening topic comes from, you know, self-compassion has been one of the most game-changing, uh, approaches and mindsets that I've experienced in my journey of the last few years.

[00:21:35] Mark: Cosign

[00:21:36] Anya: Yeah. Cause I Yeah. You know, uh, if we do s for self-compassion, we might have to do like, over like about four episodes. Um, but, so, so, you know, so self compassion's always gonna be my be my true. Um, but I still have a lot of, uh, I have a major crush on acceptance and commitment training, like raging, you know?

[00:22:01] Um, and the thing is, the reason why I love it so much is because woven into it is so much self-compassion. Um, it. Kind of like a third or fourth wave, C B T, cognitive behavioral therapy, which I think most people will know about. Um, which gets you to, uh, you know, I'm not trained in it, but as far as I know that C B T is very much invites you to question your thoughts and to challenge whether they're true.

[00:22:32] What I love about ACT As it's as. Abbreviated acceptance and commitment training, acceptance and commitment therapy, however you wanna call it. It started off as a therapy is, it doesn't ask is it true, but does it help? And the idea of does it help towards you living your values? And it's all geared towards something called psychological flex.

[00:23:01] and this is why, you know, I love it because, you know, talking about acceptance, being able to be with, you know, the difficult things. It is the thing of being able to be with our experience, whatever it is, and respond to our situation, what's happening around us in a way which is aligned to our heart's true desire for who we want to be in.

[00:23:26] You know, this idea of living a rich and meaningful life. And can I, can I, can I throw a, a little bit of like researchy, sciencey stuff at you?

[00:23:36] Mark: I mean, I wish you would

[00:23:39] Anya: So this is like, there's, there's, it's been going on for, it's as old as positive psychology, a little bit older. It's got a really good, um, science basis behind it. There's actually like a whole. Like we drive the car of acceptance commitment training, but there's like, someone has sat down and made a fricking engine called relational field therapy.

[00:23:58] So, um, yeah, yeah. So there's got, it's got proper, like, there's like cogs, there's like, there's, there's like an engine thing. You can, you can check the oil level. It's amazing. Um, but, you know, but this is the thing, you know, There have been 306 peer reviewed meta-analysis, systematic or narrative reviews of ACT with 900 randomized control tiles since 1986 that are RCTs are like the gold standard of testing shift, and it's been successfully used to treat workplace stress, anxiety, depression, ocd, and chronic pain, and even ptsd.

[00:24:37] But this is the one which I. Really is, you know, uh, an analysis of 174 separate studies is almost 44,000. Participants suggest that psychological flexibility, again, this ability to be with difficult staff, respond to our emotion in a way which is aligned to our values, was, uh, linked to rewarding family relationship dynamics and stronger connect.

[00:25:07] And the, and the inflexibility was linked to conflict and harsh negative dynamics with parental inflexibility, particularly linked to parenting stress and poorer child functioning. If you just think about this idea that. How we, our own level of acceptance of things, our own relation. Cause it's, we've talked about our relationship with what's happening on inside us and what's happening around us essentially.

[00:25:41] And you know, I talk often talk about acceptance when I talk about act, join the Museum of Happiness about this idea, and the left hand is pushing things. , it's experiential avoidance, and then the right hand is gripping onto things. This is where, you know, we are fused with ideas and identities, and I always tell, like, when I, whenever I do this again, you know, I've got my left hand out like a shield, I've got my right hand, like, like it's gripping the, the handle of a sword.

[00:26:10] How friendly is that to the world? How often, how, how welcoming is that to a child actually in this particular thought, You know, and particularly because, oh, okay, I'm gonna start wandering now. I really do apologize, listeners. Uh, there, there's a rabbit hole. Just grab my collar in case I go in too deep. Um, in, there's so many of us have water known as attachment wounds, where we have received conflicting messages from our caregivers, which have made us.

[00:26:50] Unsafe in some way. Now, you know, good enough parenting means that, you know, the, the, the good moments of attunement outweigh the bad moments, et cetera, et cetera. No one can be fully attuned to another person. Um, but if we sense an incongruence, a lack of congruity between what someone is saying and the way they are appearing.

[00:27:20] that can make us feel unsafe. And so for a lot of people, when it becomes to accepting stuff in our lives, yes, but we're trying to avoid certain things and hold onto certain things, but the truth is still leaking out of us. Like sweat

[00:27:39] Mark: Hmm.

[00:27:40] Anya: bet that, that there's, there's a metaphor to con with on this time in the morning.

[00:27:44] Mark: Hello there.

[00:27:45] Anya: Hello . And so there's this thing of, we are communicating mixed messages and you know, we say, oh yeah, you know, say, oh, um, so, so how's, how's everything with, with Joe and this car? Like, oh yeah, no, it's fine. Like , you literally spa your water out now I wasn't even playing it. Um, you know, cuz like there's immediately, there's a tension there.

[00:28:13] Mark: Hmm.

[00:28:14] Anya: and you don't know. And there's like, you can say that you're accepting something on one level, but there's so much else being communicated at the same time, which says, no, no it's not. Um, and you, this is immediately taking me over to kind of like, um, a lot of trauma work, which you. Things like the body keeps the score, uh, best Van Coke and, and Gabo Matt's work.

[00:28:42] You know, we say that we accept things and our body says no. You know, our body makes us sick, you know, to to, to protest on our behalf when we do not feel to safe enough to articulate.

[00:28:57] can I, can I talk to you about the good side of accepting things?

[00:29:00] Mark: Oh, please.

[00:29:03] Anya: So, cuz we've talked about like the, some of the good things about the, the positive aspects of acceptance makes me think of a, of a story that I can never, I'm never sure how I, how to say his name. So I'm gonna, we'll have to, might might have to cover this in post honey, um, Eckhart

[00:29:22] Mark: Okay.

[00:29:23] Anya: Um,

[00:29:25] Mark: I mean, I'm convinced either way,

[00:29:26] Anya: Yeah. Yes. Um, you know, like most people, I have a book of the power copy of the Power of Now sitting on a book self, which I am waiting to absorb via, via osmosis.

[00:29:36] Um, it's not happened yet, but I'm sure the sound, the technology will exist soon. Um, and, but the only thing I can remember is of him talking about, or I read this probably, you know, talking about being stuck in quicksand and people are struggl. It's making them sink deeper and deeper and deeper. And this idea, if we just relax, if we just stop,

[00:30:04] take a beat, we stop sinking. The quick sound is actually, we're reaching like a level of homeostasis in this. All our resources are no longer being spent on the. And the stories that are going on right now, we can just start taking in our surroundings. We're not so much focused on what's happening to us.

[00:30:35] We are allowing ourselves to open ourselves to what's around us, and in doing so, that's when we see a branch sticking out within reach. , which will allow us to pull us out of the quick sand. So often we are in these struggles with our situation, with our experience, and all our cognitive energy, all our emotional energy, all our physical energy goes into this, this fight, this tension, this tum.

[00:31:17] That we are generating, and yet when we just soften, we just allow, we allow ourselves to be held by the universe, by the moment, by a trust that we are in essence, at our core, okay? We then have the more resources, more capacity, more bandwidth. To be open to new possibilities, new ideas, new branches that are being extended to us within our grasp, which mean that we can have a different experience of our environment.

[00:32:03] One of the things that acceptance allows us to do is to, is to be with our emotions. And a lot of people have difficulty with the word acceptance because I think it means, you know, surrender, resignation defeat, giving in. So if it feels more comfortable to, you know, think about it as a, as a willingness.

[00:32:25] Think about it as being, um, an ability to sit beside something on a park bench. You know, it doesn't mean that we have to, um, uh, you know, take it in with both arms and love it. It's allowing us to have the opportunity to yeah, realize where we are to, and, and. Give ourselves some kindness in that. And there's nothing that shares this better than I, that I know of, than, uh, Rumi's poem.

[00:33:00] The Guest House, which I would love to share with you.

[00:33:05] Mark: Please.

[00:33:07] Anya: This being human is a Guest house every morning and your arrival. Joy, a depression, a meaner, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor. Welcome and entertain them all, even if they're a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house, empty of its furniture, still treat each Guest honorably.

[00:33:38] He may be clearing you out for some new. The dark thought, the shame, the malice meets them at the door laughing and invite them in. Be grateful for whoever comes because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.

[00:34:02] And as we draw this to a close, I would love to just share a couple of prompts. Actually, um, you know, don't, don't, don't stress about this. If you're listening to, and this is just, you know, some, uh, little things to take away if they feel comfortable to you, and this idea of the first one is, you know, what would you lose by accepting something and what would you gain by its loss?

[00:34:34] The second is, What are you stopping yourself from accepting about yourself? What would it mean for how you see yourself? And then the last one, what could you accept about someone? And through doing so, release both of you with kindness

[00:35:02] and you know, I love to ask this question, um, of people, so this is, this is the final takeaway. You know, I would love for you, you know, you're listening right now, my dear. Um, what's the kindest thing for you can, you can do for yourself today? Yeah, just think about that and, you know, whatever it. I am your verbal permission slip for you to give yourself that gift, whatever it is you need.

[00:35:39] Thank you,

[00:35:39] Mark: The eight is that of happiness is presented by Anya Pearse and me Mark Steadman. It's produced by Origin and you can find us at atozofhappiness.com, where you'll also find links to the things we discussed. If you know someone who could benefit from hearing this episode, please share it with them, whichever way is easiest for you. Take care and do join us again next week on the A to Z of Happiness.