Optimism

[00:00:00] Mark: There is a magnificent amount of optimism that it takes to hit record and have absolutely no idea what you're gonna say. But there's something says, brain, I'm jumping out. Catch me

[00:00:12] Anya: And it's working so far for us. Love,

[00:00:14] Mark: It's going fine

[00:00:17] Anya: I mean, it's only only 21 seconds in, but I think these are an excellent 21 seconds and counting.

[00:00:22] Mark: Hit the theme tune.

[00:00:26] Welcome to the A to Z of Happiness, with Anya Pearse and me Mark Steadman. Join us as we unpack the science of happiness one letter at a time this week it's O for optimism.

[00:00:40] Anya: Well, we've reached o in our alphabet and for, you know, for me it's one of the most obvious things we associate with happiness. You know, can you imagine someone who's truly happy, who isn't also optimistic, quite honestly?

[00:00:54] Mark: Yeah the, I think the world's going to hell in a hand card. Everything's terrible big. You know what, I've got a cheery smile on my face. Like it that's quite that's that's, a kind of nihilistic Happiness.

[00:01:05] Anya: Yeah. Yeah. I, and I think it's, you know, it, and, and it's an interesting one because on the face of it, we all get a sense of what being optimistic is. Said, oh, you know, I feel I'm optimistic about the future. You know, it's, it's having this forward looking, forward thinking outlook, you know, but there is like, a lot of, a lot of research basically takes these things and shakes them and, you know, there's that, this talk about whether it's particular, you know, disposition, whether it's the way that we,

[00:01:35] attribute things that happen to us, you know, attribution style. You know, some of us have, you know, this idea of like a cognitive bias towards it. Which can be for good and bad. You know, if you're constantly optimistic that things are gonna work out and you don't learn from the data when they don't, not always a good thing.

[00:01:55] And then there's even this idea of this, you know, of a shared illusion. But I think, you know, it is like that, you know, for, for our purposes today, you know, we are gonna think of it as this inclination to hope. You know, I think it ties in with our H for Hope episode and. Or believing in that, you know, we live in like as you said, you know, with both going to hella the hand card, but we still live in the best of all possible worlds.

[00:02:21] You know, having this way of looking either are the things around us or at the future. Maybe not so much with uh, rose tinted glasses, but certainly with an expectation that there is always going to be something in our glass, whether or not it's going to be counted as half full or not.

[00:02:43] Mark: I always had a weird, uh, relationship with that. Phrase and that I, I sort of thought of the whole half empty thing as being able to be read both ways. 'cause you could, you know, it's like it's only half empty dunno it's just a, I'm, I'm not just being obtuse. Like, there, there's something in that that I, I kind of thought it's a weird way that you can yeah.

[00:03:01] You know, it's, it's all in the intonation. It's only, if it's the word only that seems to flip it on its head, which is weird. Like only half full versus it's only half empty. I don't know, it's just one of those linguistic quirk.

[00:03:13] Anya: well, well, it might be, but I also think it is, it ties into, and we're gonna be touching on this, you know, a little bit, you know, when I, when I, we explore the prompts, the idea of a negativity balance or a bias, sorry. And, you know, do we focus on what is there or what is lacking and what is missing,

[00:03:30] Mark: I feel like I might be the latter and I should like to be the former.

[00:03:35] Anya: Yeah, and I think, you know, trying to cultivate more optimism, you know, this is tied in where, you know, I mean, there's this idea of psychological capital, which talks about. Being more resources part. It's something that happens a lot in organizational positive psychology. Uh, you know, how do we help people to feel more resource and engaged? What do they, what qualities do they need to cultivate or what do we need to support them in cultivating in the workplace?

[00:04:05] And it's got this acronym of heroes, it's Hope, empowerment, resilience and Optimism. And it really does bring together these ideas of how, just how, useful optimism is for changing the way that we look at things. You know, if we think that the glass is always half empty, you know, and being focused on what's missing in our lives and you know, I will put my hands up and say, no, I know that you just said that you are, you know, you somewhat err towards that.

[00:04:37] Me too. And I think, you know, there are aspects in our lives where And not in every aspect, but where we can become almost blind to the things that come up or the opportunities or the changes in a certain sector of our lives, because we only see what's missing. And have an attachment to it being fulfilled in a particular way.

[00:05:06] You know, our glass is half full with, with, uh, with Coca-Cola. We need the rest of it filled up with rum, know, but so, but, so, but sometimes,

[00:05:14] Mark: that's a heady mix.

[00:05:16] Anya: well, you know, oh, well you and I have spoken before and you've accidentally put meat in instead. And I think that's gotta be an even headier mix, honey.

[00:05:22] Mark: happened You're mistaken

[00:05:24] Anya: And so, yeah, no, we have this thing of being. Focused on having the gaps in our lives filled in a particular way. And I think, you know, with, with optimism there is, to me it's also ties in with this idea of the very trendy thing of fixed versus growth mindset. I.

[00:05:44] You know, when we have a growth mindset, there's an openness to things changing and shifting and, and potentially for the better for us, change for the better.

[00:05:55] And I think this ties in with the, the aspect of optimism, of expecting positive things of. having a pleasant sense of anticipation rather than trepidation, which I think, you know, for those of us who, you know, struggle with noticing what's missing, being aware of where things could be a little bit better, actually having these gentle nudges towards noticing.

[00:06:30] What's present, what's working and what good things could still come. I think that is a useful, useful thing. And you know, there is evidence that actually, you know, optimistic people generally have a higher quality of life compared to those with even just like low levels of optimism or even pessimism.

[00:06:51] You know, I think it's having this, I know for myself when I. I go out less often now, but when I've gone out with a sense of openness and not expectation as in, oh, something's going to, something's good is going to happen to me, but a sense of almost like an energy of if it happens, I welcome it How? Just little random things. I, I notice more, I have conversations, more people smile more, I smile at them more first, which then, you know, triggers this cascade of things. And I think being optimistic just brings in this receptivity, that's the word that's just popped into my mind, a receptivity to the good in life.

[00:07:37] And, you know, it brings in, you know. This ability to be more flexible, perhaps even enhancing our problem solving capacity. Because rather than being focused on, oh, I can't do this, I can't do that, you know, these are all the things that's stopping me. We're able just to lift our gaze enough to go, oh, but does this over here?

[00:08:01] Oh, there's that over here. Or I can stick these two things together, you know? And I think that is really helpful, you know, and, and means that we can get more, get more juice from our squeeze, frankly.

[00:08:16] Mark: this kind of brings me, uh, around to thinking, and it maybe it swings us into, uh, our first prompt of the Netflix show, unbeatable Kimmy Schmidt. And because I seem to understand most things through popular culture, there is uh, in, in, in this, you have this character played by Ellie Camper who's been kept as a well, she was, uh, uh, I think they described her as the Molefi lady. She was abducted as a child and then to live in John Ham's basement two other girls as part of some weird ritualistic cult thing. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Um this is all this is all basically in the credits, the opening credits So she gets, she is, uh, she and the other two are res, I think it's two, it's two or three are rescued. And, you know, someone opens the hatch and out, they all come and a brief, uh, press blitz. And then basically she's dropped in New York. She's been a Molefi person for. I can't remember how many years, but it might be a couple of decades. And obviously in that time, you know, she's had no real, uh, education. She's had no access to, to tv. She doesn't really know anything but she outta the other, I think it's the other three that were there, has this abundance of optimism and she's bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. And yes, a bit naive, but also not naive enough that you can fully take advantage of, of because you know, she's got her trauma and she's got her things.

[00:09:46] But it's, it's a really interesting take on that whole notion of it. It, it is just about how you view things or it can be just about how you view things and choosing to see this whole wide world as bright and open and exciting and fresh and new, and there's opportunities around every door versus. You know, the, the, the very scary alternative. And it just, it's something that I think if you're looking for a corollary ary or a way of framing this, a way of sort of understanding that viewpoint. I don't know. Um, Oh, cer certainly answering that first question in the prompt of like, what does being optimistic mean to me? And I kind of think about, yeah, emerging from, uh, from being a Molefi person, uh, after 20 years and going, wow, isn't the world amazing.

[00:10:33] Anya: Well, I mean, it makes me think now I, I'm, I haven't checked whether this is apocryphal or not, but you know, one of, 'cause there's so many quotes attributed to Einstein, and I think he only said about 4% of them, but

[00:10:45] Mark: It's either Einstein churchill, Poe or uh

[00:10:49] Anya: Or ghi. But yeah, I do, it's, it's, and it's something along the lines of you can live your life either as if nothing is a miracle or this, if everything is a miracle. And I think, you know, the living as if everything is a miracle, aligned strongly with this idea of, of optimism and. able to register what's around us, be present with it, and with this sense that more good stuff is going to come.

[00:11:16] It's almost like the opposite of a scarcity mindset of, you know, where we think, oh, I've only got a few things I need to protect. And the optimism is like, well, I have what I have right now, and there could be more. You know, and I think it's that, it's that sort of thing. And, you know, I think it can be quite challenging for a lot of us to be optimistic, and particularly after the last few years, this idea of, you know, can we, 'cause you know, it's, it's.

[00:11:45] Often, you know, considered, you know, maybe like a, a cognitive style, you know, thinking positively and realizing that, or almost aligned to I lost the theories in hope. You know, where there's something that you want, you come up with different ways that you can get it, and then you believe in your, in your efficacy to achieve them and accomplish them.

[00:12:04] Yeah, when things are going well. Some people, you know, as Brene Brown puts it, you know, just waiting for the other shoe to drop,

[00:12:11] Mark: Yeah.

[00:12:12] Anya: you know, rather than something good happening to us. Me thinking, Ooh, there's more of this on the way. We go, Ooh, I've got this now, which means bad shit's about to happen.

[00:12:21] Mark: Yeah. I um, I'm thankful that I, I, I definitely have, I think, more of a scarcity mindset than anything else. But I, I, I'm not one of those, 'cause that, I think what you're describing there feels like superstition,

[00:12:34] know, something good's happened, therefore. Or, or, or not exactly magical thinking, but there's, you know, the idea, which I, I find difficult to subscribe to, although many, many do about the universe sort of having an idea of what's going on, the universe being almost sentient and this good thing has happened to you, so therefore we have to balance it out.

[00:12:54] Anya: But I dunno whether it's, it's kind, it's that so much as 'cause what's just come into my mind is the word puritanical

[00:13:00] Mark: Hmm

[00:13:02] Anya: How we are not allowed. There's like, you know, I think it's quite a strong puritanical streak in, you know, some societies and in some families where you know, you are not allowed to enjoy this.

[00:13:12] You are not allowed to enjoy life. You're supposed to work hard, suffer, and then you will get your reward when you die, And so getting something good now is like, oh God, oh my goodness, I'm cheating God. And, and you know, this, this unconscious belief in a wrathful God who will then strike vengeance for, for taking a candy, you know, eating your dessert before you finished your greens, you know?

[00:13:36] And so it's kind of, and I think, you know, there are different, different places where we can be more or less optimistic, you know depending on our previous experiences, you know, we are as humans, you know, there is, so we are receiving so much data constantly. We are processing it. We're only processing quite a small amount of it because it is cognitively exhausting.

[00:14:00] And so, you know, we are. Predisposed board being these kind of like, these meaning making prediction, making machines, you know, filtered through, you know, yes, our past experience, but also the beliefs that we've created from those experiences. As I say, something good could happen to two people and one person could go, oh, this is brilliant.

[00:14:24] More of it's gonna happen. They're being optimistic. Whereas the other person might go, oh, this good thing has happened, but all these negative things have happened as a consequence of that, or This good thing has happened, but the wrathful God will now take it away from me. 'cause I don't deserve it. You know?

[00:14:42] And so it's just really finding ways to navigate this because you know, we could have these two. Impulses, these two stories inside us, you know, different aspects of ourselves arguing with themselves. And so this is where, you know, fighting our innate negativity bias and, you know, with our, with our second prompt, you know, do you believe that things are personal, permanent, and pervasive?

[00:15:11] Mark: Yes. I I know this is a, I know this is a trick. It's not a trick question. I know you are, leading me into something. No, uh, no. I, I, I have had this conversation with both mental health professionals and people who are, uh, unprofessionally interested in my mental health and um that is definitely something interesting that has come up before.

[00:15:31] Do you know, do you take things personally. Do you think? Yeah. Do you think they're always gonna be like this? And, and is it everything? And I have such an all or nothing mindset. You very few shades of gray. And think something wonderful is, is happening, then suddenly, you know, the world is brighter. Things taste more blue versus if you know something awful or, or even not even awful, just something, you know, mildly negative. It's like, well, that's the month through end. So I identify,

[00:16:03] Anya: yeah,

[00:16:04] Mark: I know you weren't asking that question of me, but I just thought, you know, I would, I would play along.

[00:16:07] Anya: Uh, well, no, no, and, and, and, and God bless you, sir, for doing so. You know, because this is the thing, you know one, one of the, the, the fathers of positive psychology, Martin Seligman, he a, he will willingly and, and openly admit that he's actually not a very tearful, happy person.

[00:16:25] You know, his whole body of research was in depression and anxiety, and. You know, his, his ideas around, you know, positive psychology came up and this idea of other things, you know, believe things that are personal, permanent, pervasive came from his research into something he called learned helplessness, where, you know, we get into situations where we don't believe we have any agency.

[00:16:49] You know, we believe that things are always so, so if and if you don't believe you can make any changes. Why would you try and change or just adjust something that is permanent, is what's the point? You know, why, why, why struggle with it? And so, and this pers pervasiveness as well. 'cause I think, you know, I just mentioned a couple of minutes ago how we can have different aspects of ourselves believing different things.

[00:17:17] And so how can something affect. Everything, when even within us there is so much text and variety. But I think the thing that's really captures my attention, and I have to remember time and time again, is the things that it's not personal. You know, when bad things happen to us, realizing that, or remembering that the universe doesn't have it in for us personally, sometimes things just happen. And it can happen to anyone.

[00:17:47] Mark: The phrase I, um, I read yesterday was, uh, something along the lines of, um, the universe

[00:17:52] doesn't punish.

[00:17:53] Anya: Yeah. And it is this thing of, you know, why I am a big fan of, we might do it for s uh, self-compassion is 'cause one of them, one of the pillars of that is, is common humanity, which reminds us that whatever we're going through, we're not alone in it.

[00:18:08] Mark: Mm

[00:18:08] Anya: You know? And so while. The very exact circumstances of something might feel or be personal because it involves you and the factors that are around you, the experience that you are having, the reason why you are having it. The reason why these things occurred isn't personal.

[00:18:29] Mark: mm-Hmm it's not at you.

[00:18:32] Anya: It's not at you. Yeah, yeah. There was a phase which brought me a tremendous. Amount of comfort when I was going through a really bad breakup, which is, you know, how others treat, treat us is their path. How we respond is ours. And being able to just get that kind of space and distance from it, you know, how are the treat, how other people treat me isn't because, you know, I've done anything wrong per se.

[00:19:02] That's, that's their, as much, their part, a part of their journey as it is them being a part of mine. And I love that the PEMA Children reminder in all of this, which is, you know, what else is true? You know? Yes. Something sucks. Yes. Someone hurt you. Yes. They actually did it on purpose. The absolute bastards.

[00:19:23] And what else is true? You know, sometimes, you know. I, I had an experience this year, which was extremely painful, and if it hadn't been as painful as it was, I would still be stuck in it, And so that can be a real way to nudges towards, you know, outta thinking whether things are permanent, personal, pervasive, to actually just asking ourselves, you know, what else is true or could be true in this moment.

[00:19:50] And so yeah, this. You know, one last thing I wanna take on this, you know, this idea of, how we approach things, uh, in an optimistic way is the fact that actually, you know, we're talking about this openness, this receptivity to good things happening. And I dunno about you, mark, but that can feel really vulnerable at times.

[00:20:14] There's this sense that. Even if it's not a full expectation of good things, you know, it depends on the amount of waiting we put on it. If it's like a, just a general sense of no life is good. I expect, you know, things that, that can be quite good. But having maybe having optimism about a particular project or a particular relationship or particular person and being full of that energy, that brightness, that aliveness.

[00:20:44] And then, you know, getting to like, almost like a tipping point where, oh, you know, the things that I thought were gonna happen aren't happening. And, and, and there was more, I had more attachment to certain ideas and images than I thought I would have about how this would transpire.

[00:21:03] Mark: This is very big in my family. This is the, the, the story or the phrase of don't get your hopes up.

[00:21:10] Anya: Wow.

[00:21:11] Mark: Very, yeah. Very big. Uh, you know, it's, it, and it doesn't come from a place of, I think thinking that bad things always happen. It comes from a place of having. Parents who don't want to see you upset, and that's what, you know, I think that's what that comes from, is, you know, we don't wanna see you, we don't wanna see this not work out for you and, you know, have, have that to deal with.

[00:21:32] That's not putting selfishly than, than they feel it. But it, yeah, very much. That is a, that is a big phrase that, that resonates within our families. Yeah. I don't want you to get your hopes up.

[00:21:45] Anya: Yeah, and it, and it totally, you know, comes in this place of love, of not wanting see someone suffer from disappointment and to put a lot of energy into something which I. They may not see as a, as a done deal, as a guarantee. You know, it's kind of, there's a lot of tolerating uncertainty I think in this, and I think, you know, that is, that is an, I think an an aspect of optimism which pops perhaps, you know, is spoken about.

[00:22:16] It is, you know, it's much easier to tolerate uncertainty if you feel optimistic about. What might happen next? You know, it, it, it, then it's the fine line between anticipation and, and anxiety.

[00:22:31] Mark: Mm.

[00:22:33] Anya: I think,

[00:22:34] Mark: So how can we cultivate more optimism in our lives?

[00:22:38] Anya: well, I think, you know, there are. Now there are a couple of things and you know, something that is really, really basic, you know, we've spoken about a lot on this podcast is, is a negativity bias. You know, we are, you know, just for, for anyone who hasn't heard me blather about this previously, you know, it is our, you know, a as a, as a species, it benefited us if we were in a, in a jungle to mistake a stick for a snake and to run away.

[00:23:07] Then to go, oh, that's a really pretty stick, and then get bitten by a snake. And so we are more tuned towards the things that are lacking, the things that are missing, the things that might hurt us,

[00:23:20] Mark: Is there a pattern recognition aspect to that as well of, you know, we, we, we see patterns. We, we connect memories that maybe don't need to be connected, uh, but we, we snap them to the grid of our, of our personal desktop. Kind of the, you know, that that stick is brown and spotty, kind of like snake I saw before.

[00:23:39] it's enough like it, I'm like, yeah, that that fits. That's probably deadly.

[00:23:43] Anya: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, part of the challenge of that is we then start snapping to our desktop things that Don't need to be there and don't to be associated with them. And we can start, you know, one of the things, you know, the challenges of mental health is when we become more rigid is we start to restrict ourselves and include more and more things that we need to be, that we feel aversive towards, you know, how we want to avoid.

[00:24:11] I think, you know, that is a difficulty with negativity bias. If we're constantly looking at the, at the downsides of things, we will then spot more of those downsides and start adding to them as a reason why we, you know, why we shouldn't do X or Y. You know, they become, they, they loom larger in our consciousness.

[00:24:29] And, you know, the, one of the very, very basic, one of the cheapest. No, I mean, and, and for most people, one of the easiest ways to retrain a negative negativity bias is to just, flip it towards looking towards what is working well in your life through a gratitude journal,

[00:24:46] Mark: And I like the, the framing that you've, that you've put there, about. Retraining opposed to 'cause I, you know, I, we, I think we've, we've talked about this before that I, and maybe maybe others. There can be a, a negative connotation, I think a misplaced one because it comes from a, a different understanding of the word but sort of a misplaced animosity towards gratitude of, because you know our parents told us, you know, 30 years ago that we should be grateful for this thing and, is starving children on Mars or whatever.

[00:25:18] But that's not what it is. and, and it's not so as, as you might say, Pollyanna-ish. But I certainly like the, the aspect of. You know, it's something I'm, I'm exploring more and more is remapping the neural pathways, um and and just creating a new desire path between new and positivity by you said, with this sort of this practice, it's, it's not necessarily about not acknowledging that that shitty things can happen in the world. It's actually just remapping so that you can take more of a, a positive, approach to things.

[00:25:51] Anya: Yeah. And actually no, a a as you're talking now, kind of like a, a couple of metaphors are coming in into my mind and one of them is when we have a negativity bias, we have blinkers on, I. We can only, we can only take in a certain amount of data. And I think in the actual practice, the intentional practice of doing the gratitude journaling is a way of, at first just widening those blinkers and then eventually, you know, moving them far way enough the, the, on the very edges of our peripheral vision, which then allows us to just.

[00:26:30] See more of what's going on around us. I think that's the thing. It's not so much about even replacing thinking as much as shifting the weighting of it so that we have a more enjoyable experience of life. It's the yes and. You know, a lot of people, you know, and, and I, and I'm talking to an art, you know, a a, a longstanding improviser, you know, like so much of, so many of us go through life going Yes, but, which I think is a negativity bias.

[00:27:03] Yes. But that's not right. Yes. But that I want something different. Yes. But go away you know, kind of the Yes. And of taking a gratitude practice of going. There's a, there's a lovely quote I forget the, uh, originator's name of it. And she says, you know, there's not, not every day may be good, but there's some something good in every day. And again, back to the Pema Children thing, what else is true?

[00:27:29] Mark: Which is also a, I believe, a quite an improvy thing as well. If this is true, uh, in this world, what else is true?

[00:27:34] Anya: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, and all of this, you know, I, I, I've got you and a couple of other friends, you know, Chris Kenworthy as well, who's very much into improv. There's a certain, from what I understand of it in talking to you guys, is there's this psychological flexibility

[00:27:48] of it, And to me that is simply. You've got a couple of things, a couple of pieces, a couple of chess pieces on your table or a couple of cards or whatever. You're stepping back so you can see, oh, this, the table is bigger. There are more things on it that I can bring into this situation, into this game. And I think, you know, who doesn't want to be more resourced?

[00:28:09] Have more, more things to draw on, you know, when facing, you know, situations, good or bad. And so, you know, that's, that's gratitude journaling.

[00:28:18] Mark: That's, that's, that's number one.

[00:28:20] Anya: That's number one. And I think you're kind of the, the, the two months of, you're kind of like interconnected actually. Because I was gonna say, you know, reminding yourselves that things aren't always personal and can change.

[00:28:32] And I think that is much easier if you are hanging out with other people who are generally op more optimistic because they're modeling and you have like, yes, the social contagion effect. But you know, hanging around with someone who, when you complain about stuff rather than, rather than tries to one up menu, and you go, oh, you think that's bad?

[00:28:54] You, you just wait until I tell you about my day, honey. You know, go, well, you know that, that, that sounds really bad. And you also mention that you had a really nice lunch that day before that happened. Kinda like recontextualizing and understanding that, there are other things going on and available as well.

[00:29:13] And so yeah being, around optimistic people so you can see for yourself that sometimes it is okay to, to, to hope for the best. Sometimes that works. Sometimes that is what need, what's what you need to do, and that you have the, the, the strength and resilience to, to be okay even if things. Don't turn out the way that you expected or hoped or turn out in ways which you couldn't have even have imagined.

[00:29:43] Mark: There's a, there's an interesting thing there for me around when it comes to sort of hoping for the, hoping for the best. I think sometimes the fear is not that you don't prepare for the worst, but that you prepare for the best. And then if the best thing doesn't materialize, it's like, well, I spent all my time building this thing over here because I was so sure this was gonna work. Uh and I think there's a cautionary tale in there, in in hoping for the best, not, and, and, you know, yes, there is a phrase, hope for the best, plan for the worst. But I dunno, like, hope for the best. Don't necessarily make any concrete plans so you know, you can be sad if it didn't work out, are not, you know, uh, left in a tricky situation.

[00:30:24] Anya: well, I guess there's a difference between realistic optimism and unrealistic optimism. You know, this is something you know, I'll, in the show notes, I'll put a link to a talk that Martin Seligman did with Action for Happiness, and which was recorded right at the start of the coronavirus.

[00:30:40] Mark: Hmm.

[00:30:41] Anya: And you know, you know, talking about, you know, what is a what, how can we be realistically optimistic in this situation? You know, what can be done? You know? And I think, and it is a nuance, you know, between Oh, always expecting everything to, to turn out right And actually going, well, you know, certain things might, there are certain things I can do that can facilitate that. And there are certain things which. It is just you know, magical thinking.

[00:31:12]

[00:31:12] And so I, I, I was looking around trying to find a suitable poem on optimism, and I came across this by Carolanne Duffy.

[00:31:20] Mark: Scourge of my A level English.

[00:31:22] Anya: You and a few other people, I'm sure.

[00:31:23] Mark: If you are an of if you know, you know, it was him and her, her and Seamus Heney. Anyway.

[00:31:28] Anya: Oh God, yes.

[00:31:30] Mark: I feel sorry for these people because for there, there are just, there are swathes of the popula that are just like, oh God. 'cause the only, the only reason they exist. 'cause no one, sorry, no one reads outside of available English. it's so, it's like the only, the only experience we have is just like, oh yeah, we're doing Carolanne Duffy again. It's not nice these people experience

[00:31:50] Sorry

[00:31:51] Anya: Oh, well, I mean, I, if, if you said that I would've chosen someone completely different.

[00:31:56] Mark: I bear Carol no, no. Ill will.

[00:31:58] Anya: and I'm sure the feeling's mutual um

[00:31:59] Mark: I'm just absolutely sure

[00:32:01] Anya: but there was just this, I thought this, this tied in nicely with with the subject matter and its ship. It's only be quite short. In the end, it was nothing more than the toy boat of a boy on the local Parks Lake where I walked with you, but I knelt down to watch it arrive.

[00:32:23] It's white sail shy with amber light. The late sun bronzing the wave that lifted it up. My ship coming in with its cargo of joy.