Joy

[00:00:00] Mark: have a special folder full of things. I have, uh, bird dancing to iPhone ring tones, cat answering phone, uh, an MP3 called Great Size, Milky Singing Kitten,

[00:00:12] Anya: Oh my favorite.

[00:00:13] Mark: my my Favorite. and a piece of media that is perhaps 20. Five years old, which is a man called Hugh Culling Born, singing a song about how great PCs are, which is to the tune of the Village People's In the Navy

[00:00:36] Mark: Welcome to the eighties out of happiness with Anya Pearse and me Mark Steadman. Join us each week. As we unpack the science of happiness, one letter at a time. This week. It's J for joy.

[00:00:59]

[00:00:59] Anya: You know, we've had a couple Yeah. If you are regular listener to this and, and, and, and God bless you for trying,

[00:01:07] Mark: and why wouldn't you be?

[00:01:11] Anya: you know, there's, we've had a couple of, you know, I, I haven't, one of my gifts, stroke curses, Christian gifts, stroke curses, is the fact that I will try. And go towards the things or talk about the things that I'm not good at and I'm uncomfortable with. And so I think we've had a couple of episodes which have been like, you know, we're talking about Happiness, we're also, but in doing that, we're talking about the things that prevent us from Happiness. So this time we're actually talking about Happiness a bit more direct, a bit more full on,

[00:01:48] Mark: Straight smacking in the face.

[00:01:52] Anya: because.

[00:01:53] Mark: Why did I just think about Greg Da,

[00:01:54] Mark: not, not Greg Davis, Greg, um, Greg from Master Chef. I just got a, I just got an image of Greg from Master Chef and his buttery biscuit of base and his face just full of joy. There's a man who knows what joy looks like and it's, it comes in butter and sugar,

[00:02:09] Anya: And to be fair, I think I cut it comes in butter and sugar for most of us.

[00:02:12] Mark: I think. So sorry, I'm not helping

[00:02:15] Anya: But, but you, but you are in your own way, um, but it's this idea. You see, we're having a good laugh now. We need positive emotions in our life,

[00:02:26] Anya: even if things are, we're being, life is very purposeful and meaningful and we feel that we're contributing to those around. You know, a life without positive emotions can feel quite dry. And you know, Martin Seligman's model, a PERMA model, you know, it starts off with p for positive emotions.

[00:02:45] Anya: This is the kind of thing which we're drawn to, we want to experience more of. And you know, in Barbara Frederickson, is a Happiness researcher, specialist. Professor and she's been studying positive emotions, you know, for decades and outta the 10 that she captures. You know, the motion closest to Happiness to being happy is joy.

[00:03:11] Anya: you know, it's this idea of, you know, we appraise things as feeling safe or familiar, making progress and, you know, which is kind of inspires this tendency in us to play. And actually, one of the interesting things about being in a joyful state is, I think particularly, it's interesting kind of thinking from an education point of view.

[00:03:34] Anya: know, so many of us, you know, are trying to learn new things or encourage others to learn things. And if we are in a state of, uh, fear or discouragement or in negative emotions, that can make it quite difficult. Whereas being in a joyful state, being happy means that we are more likely to ironically, acquire skills in that state because there are fewer barriers, fewer cognitive and emotional barriers to us us absorbing the information that's that's coming our.

[00:04:10] Mark: it's it's interesting, I was thinking about how joy is a noun. and we have end joy as a verb. And I know Happiness is a noun, but it doesn't really count. And so there's something, because I, I was, I was thinking about the. Difference and, and trying to help delineate the difference between joy and Happiness, because one of them is a state, and I think the other is kind of, it's, it's a, it's a joy is a, like, like you said, it's, it's a part of Happiness, it's a component of it. Um, I feel like it's more, and, and you can, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but it feels more fleeting and it feels more like there are ingredients to it, like surprise. and, and delight, you know, that, that are

[00:04:59] Mark: part of joy that then can lead to Happiness. Because if you are constantly in the state of joy, then I think you are hedonic, you know, that that's like a, you know, a hedonic thing. Happiness is, is purpose and joy and, and a few other things. So, yeah, I dunno where I just thought I'd ask where, where that leads.

[00:05:17] Anya: Well, that's an interesting one because I think There are so many different definitions of, of happy and Happiness, and it means different things to different people, and can often be perhaps a syno uh, synonym for feeling content. You know, there's, it's a, it's almost a mid-level experience, you know?

[00:05:37] Anya: Oh no, I'm feeling happy with that. Um, whereas Joy, there's an intensity to it. There was a, uh, a physical embodiment to it. I think there was a Sens sensation to it. And actually just thinking of, you know, Lisa Feldman, Barrett Barrett and her work on, you know, the, the constructed theory of emotions, you know, she would argue that we have, we have core effects rather than actual emotions themselves.

[00:06:05] Anya: And so we can be, want to move away from something or towards something. We're experiencing as pleasant or unpleasant, and we can have a level of activation, so we can be low, low activation or high activation. And depending on the social construct, the ideas we have, the way we interpret these physiological experiences determines how we interpret.

[00:06:33] Anya: those sensations. The, the, the, the example she always, and it always comes to mind from her book, you know how emotions are made, is the one where she was one of the guys in her lab kept on asking about, and she was like, oh, . And eventually she capitulated and went out to lunch with him.

[00:06:50] Mark: And they say romance is dead.

[00:06:52] Anya: I know, I know. And, but while she was having lunch she noticed that, oh wow, you know, actually I'm getting. My, my heart is fluttering, you know, my, my, my stomach is like turning over. I'm feeling all this physiological, excitement about this person who I had up until now dismissed, oh, maybe there's, maybe there's an attraction here. She got home, threw up. It was stomach flu,

[00:07:16] Mark: Oh my word. Ah,

[00:07:21] Anya: Sorry to burst that bubble,

[00:07:22] Mark: Ah,

[00:07:23] Anya: but, but you know, it is this thing of how we interpret. You know, and there's a phrase about, you know, fear is, um, misplaced or misdiagnosed, excitement.

[00:07:35] Anya: And there has been some research which suggests that if you reframe anxiety or fear, Yeah, cuz it's the same physiological symptoms. You know, if your stomach is turning and you're sitting outside a courtroom, that is again, a very different experience from your stomach turning, waiting for a date to come up. But, you know, you,

[00:07:54] Mark: I dunno. In my experience, they're kind of similar.

[00:07:57] Anya: Yeah. To be fair, um, not gonna lie. Me too,

[00:08:00] Mark: a lot of judgment on both ends.

[00:08:05] Anya: But it is this thing of, you know, how we interpret these. Physiological experiences and actually just breaking it down to thinking, you know, what is I, I've actually kinda like in the reverse kind of thing. It's kind reverse, but related, you know, I have experienced. high level of activation with someone and, and interpreted it as an as attraction. And actually it was, I think it was my nervous system going run away, .

[00:08:35] Anya: This is a bad situation. and you know Martha beck,

[00:08:39] Mark: Painter and Saint of this podcast.

[00:08:41] Anya: uh, with her Brene Brown, there were a

[00:08:43] Mark: There's a, there's a few, yeah.

[00:08:45] Anya: there, there's, there's a few. We'll, we'll make a little gallery of them and, and, and light in Sensee each morning. but you know, she talked about how, you know, a sign that your essential self, which is different from the social self, the social self, is this idea that, we want to, we, we create something which will please others and keep us safe. You know, habits, beliefs, thoughts, behaviors, but the essential self is that which is before and beyond all of those constructs.

[00:09:08] Anya: And she says, you know, a sign of your essential self liking someone is that you feel relaxed and empathetic in their company. You know, you have this sense of actually feeling good. You, your best self comes out. You are less likely to. Make silly mistakes and self-sabotage because your essential self is going, no, this, this one's okay. We we're good here. This one is safe. And this, and it's almost kind of, you know, I talk about polyvagal theory and neuroception this, this sense, this unconscious sense of, you know, warning or welcome, you know, There are some people who we meet and our nervous system goes, yeah, it's all welcome.

[00:09:53] Anya: All's good, all's good. And I think this tied in with this, you know, the way that we appraise our, our, our nervous system or our emotions, we appraise what gives us joy. It is this, you know, the first word, which, Fredrickson use in on, in her Corsa course, on, on positive psychology is this idea of being, of being safe and found a sense of familiarity.

[00:10:16] Anya: having these things which kind of allow us to, to relax, to drop the struggle, to drop the, the fear, the anxiety, and to actually, the thing that's coming into my mind right now is to be in the present moment. It's very hard to experience joy, to experience that surprise and that delight if you are not here right now with a mind that. Open enough to receive the experience.

[00:10:46] Mark: Yeah, I, I, I, I understand that because I think there is a, you have to be undistracted, you have to. Your whole mind, I think has to be, or, or at least most of the functioning mind has to be occupied with consuming that thing or understanding that thing to be able to get full joy from it.

[00:11:04] Mark: If I think about music, if it's a new piece of music, if I'm writing while I'm listening to it, I I can't enjoy that music. There might be a moment where I go, Ooh, I really like, there was a, a song recently I went, I think I really like the sound of this, and I had to stop and. You know, actually enjoy it because otherwise yeah, you are not really.

[00:11:26] Mark: But then maybe that takes us into savoring, which is perhaps, uh, for, for another discussion. But while, while I've got you, uh, we, we have, we have three prompts, um, for, for, for us to consider. Uh, and number one, uh, would be what brings us to, to, for us to think about what brings us joy.

[00:11:45] Anya: Yeah, and I think it just just is touching on what you shared this idea. You know, the presence and, and not being able to listen to music and write at the same time. It just, I keep coming back to the, the phrase by John ta Budds Roshi, you know, attention is the most basic form of love through would be blessed and are blessed.

[00:12:06] Anya: And I think it's that quality of attention. You know, which is driven through Josie George's work. I've been reading her book, uh, still Life, and she has had health issues from birth, uh, un unexplained, but often mistaken for things like chronic fatigue, has have drastically impacted her mobility, but, in the slowness of her life, she has found her way to joy to finding it in those small things.

[00:12:39] Anya: I think that that might be a bit of a stick. We beat ourselves with, you know, looking for these peak experiences and thinking them as like Mount Everest, you know, I need to go out, I need to conquer. And I, I will feel good when you know, but actually, , all of her work and her writing reminds me cuz I also live a, in a fairly, I, uh, an isolated life.

[00:13:03] Anya: I don't get out much and, you know, kind, it's almost touching in on our episode, on gratitude, you know, finding joy in the small things. the, the late Sean Stevenson, had. An idea called a when life works list.

[00:13:21] Anya: And you know, writing, taking a moment to stop and think, you know, what is it that brings me joy?

[00:13:31] Anya: And it can very often be the small things, you know, the way someone smiles in the morning, um, the way a cup of tea tastes. the way the light casts a shadow on, on, you know, on, on our living room. It's kind of just finding, but it's, again, it's that attention, it's that awareness. It's that, that being present can allow us to experience micro moments of joy.

[00:13:59] Anya: I think, you know, rather than chasing these big. Big feelings, these big experiences, their life and, and, and there is room for that as well. You know, going into a great place of beauty and natural, space that inspires awe and wonder. You know, this can bring a very visible experience of joy to our lives, but that's not always possible.

[00:14:23] Anya: And postponing joy until we. Have or find those things that we think will make us happy, can, as I say, you know, leave our life somewhat dry and somewhat aired without the, the nourishment, the, the inspiration, the the reason really to, to, to.

[00:14:47] Mark: Get up in the morning.

[00:14:47] Anya: To get up in the morning. Yeah, yeah. Finding these things, these ways to bring this positive emotion into our life, which, you know, unlike all positive emotions, you know, there is something that inspires us to want to share them. And a world where there is so much sadness, there is so much anxiety, there's so much grief. How wonderful is it knowing that emotions are contagious? If we can share joy with others and ignite it in them, I think that's a beautiful thing to try and do.

[00:15:25] Mark: Well, some of that I think brings us into number two, uh, our, our, our second question, which is how often do you experience joy? And I think I really like that micro concept because I try and build those little moments into, into my day, especially weekdays. Uh, it comes

[00:15:45] Mark: to sort of about nine o'clock. I've done all my things. I've written in my, in my journal, I've written something that I'm looking forward to the next day. and then I get under my blanket on my TV chair. and usually within 10 seconds I'm joined by, by one, if not two cats. And if it's, if it's a Friday or it's been a particularly difficult weekday, I might have a glass of something and um, and then it's, and then it's tv and it's, and it's Apple. Apple is really helping me out here with, with their tv because they, they've really figured out the, and this is speaks to, to joy actually. They've really figured out a formula for the, the sort of half hour sit.

[00:16:32] Anya: Hm.

[00:16:32] Mark: That is extensively produced so that all of the, the money that they throw at this has gone into. Shooting it really well, having some really lovely, beautiful music,

[00:16:45] Anya: Hmm

[00:16:46] Mark: the time on the writing so you can sort of see where the money, the money has gone in, in what would normally be a 22 hour sitcom. But they've got very good at that, at, at these little nuggets of joy. And I think that's one of the things I, one of the reasons I think I like the 22 minute sitcom format is because it's so snackable. And if you get a show like, uh, A 30 Rock or a, parks and Recreation, They, it, they are, or New girl or, you know, there, there are just, there are these little snackable moments that, that you can just, you can find little, little moments of, of joy in them throughout the day. If you want, if you just wanna take a quick break and watch an episode of New Girl, there is a moment there to, to bring just that little bit of, of joy in.

[00:17:28] Anya: Mm. Yeah. And I think, you know, snackable joy,

[00:17:32] Mark: Mm.

[00:17:33] Anya: I think that, I think that might be, I'm not. Coined that phrase before, but I think it is something, you know, and almost the idea of, you know, talking about, you know, the Sean Stevenson thing of, you know, writing in a what you know when life works list, you know, and keeping it always in your pocket.

[00:17:53] Anya: I tend to. Keep a cereal bar in my handbag, or a bottle of water. You know, le less so now cause I'm not going out so much, but I was always like my thing of always having a little snack with me. And I think it is this thing of, you know, what kind of little snackable piece of joy can you take with you? And I love your idea of the joy folder so that when you do want that you can just have a little, have a, have a little nipple. Little nipple of joy.

[00:18:21] Mark: Yeah, I, I think, I think that's really important cuz I think, you know, uh, however you can find these pieces of, of media when you, you know, when you come across a TikTok video or a, or an Instagram reel or what, or whatever it is, even a joke or a piece of audio or something. Save it. Take the time. actually hit the little share button and find out how you can download it.

[00:18:43] Mark: You know, if it's TikTok, it's really easy and you can just stick it somewhere and keep that somewhere that's really easily accessible. And so that when you have that awe, when you wanna share something with someone to just brighten their day for a minute, you've got a resource to be able to do that. Uh, and it's something silly, you know, I, I love, I love being able to do.

[00:19:04] Anya: And I guess what I'm thinking now is, you know, we're talking about snackable job, but of course, you know, I, I, I love how you say no, it's been, it was a five day evening, or it's been a particularly tough week. You know, you'll have a glass of something and there is. Thing. It's Brene Brown, as we mentioned, the other patron saint of, uh, this, this podcast, you know, talks about the difference between comfort and numb.

[00:19:28] Mark: Mm.

[00:19:29] Anya: You know,

[00:19:30] Mark: Pink floyd did as well.

[00:19:31] Anya: yeah, they did. you know, the, the comfort ourselves, you know, is to have like one's, you know, a couple of pieces of chocolate or a glass of wine. that might bring us joy, but you know, if we are consuming the whole bar of chocolate again mindlessly. Her thing is, you know, she knows when she's stressed, when she finds herself in the pantry eating things and had no idea how she got there.

[00:19:53] Mark: Hello, Hello. 11 o'clock last night.

[00:20:01] Anya: Yeah. Yeah. And we can't, you know, the ch the trouble is when we have difficult things in our life, you know, we can, we can want to numb the pain of that, but the challenge is we can't selectively numb. You know, I'm having some challenges myself at the moment and wanting to. , uh, numb myself and dissociate and cut myself off emotionally from, from the experience.

[00:20:30] Anya: And I can already feel how that is draining me from my ability to experience joy in other areas. It's kind of dampening that ability across the board. so, you know, we can't, we can't selectively numb the difficult things in our lives. and actually having and being aware of, yeah, 1 1 22 minutes sitcom is, is a lovely, snackable piece of joy.

[00:20:58] Anya: But if we end our days when we just cannot, you know, the avoidance days, dove days when we just need to gorge ourselves on those snacks, it's when that becomes the only way that we can get through things. is by constantly distracting ourselves. that can be a challenging thing. And this idea of, you know, when I talk about, you know, how often do you experience it, it's not just finding snacks, find, you know, cult deliberately and intentionally cultivating it,

[00:21:32] Mark: destroying them away. Look, a little squirrel,

[00:21:34] Anya: Yes, absolutely. Um,

[00:21:35] Mark: joy, squirrel.

[00:21:36] Anya: Joy

[00:21:38] Mark: It's

[00:21:39] Anya: I was gonna

[00:21:39] Mark: This first piece of merch.

[00:21:40] Anya: that's exactly what I was thinking. but we can also have this tendency to not let ourselves feel this in the first place. You know, again, patron Saint Brene Brown talked about foreboding joy. Foreboding joy. This idea of not wanting to experience something good because you know it's going to end because you're waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[00:22:03] Mark: talked about that last week or the week before. I think about, uh, yes, me moving into my, uh, my brother's room and then not wanting to, uh, not wanting to stay very longer because I knew it had to end. Absolutely.

[00:22:14] Anya: Yeah. Yeah. And it can be such a thing of, because we are so naturally loss averse as a, as a species, you know, the fear of having something to lose and then losing it. I think she, she talks about watching her daughter, son or daughter sleep and just feeling so much love and care for her offspring. And then just this icy grip taking her of, oh, what if, what if something happens to them?

[00:22:46] Anya: And just completely taking her out of the moment and into her head, into the catastrophe thinking, into all the fears and possibilities, into all the insecure think. You know, which, I can put my hand on my heart and say I experience a lot and having, you know, I'm, I'm completely human and this is what has been going on for me a lot.

[00:23:06] Anya: You know, why I've been foreboding, joy for myself is the insecure thinking of, oh, but what if, oh, but what, when? You know? And so yeah, it can be vulnerable. It can be vulnerable to feel joy. To feel positive emotions. You feel so much safer for everything to be a bit shit and to be cynical and dismissive. And you,

[00:23:30] Mark: It's very British as well.

[00:23:32] Anya: It's very British as well. but you've talked about this as well. It's not the idea of being cool.

[00:23:36] Mark: Yes, yes. We, we have this tendency to, especially when it comes to pop culture, whether it's music or films, it's so much easier to say that, that something isn't good, that you don't like something because you don't lose anything by doing that. You, you, you are not investing. You haven't invested anything that you are then gonna lose. Whereas if you really say, you know what? I really like the, uh, I really enjoy, uh, Sam Rider. I think he's a great singer.

[00:24:12] Anya: and he's such a ball of joy.

[00:24:14] Mark: I know he's such a he seems such a lovely, lovely guy. And there was a, there was a song that, uh, that he had, uh, last year that I d I was the only person dancing at my family Christmas party. I, there was someone there who was with me for a bit. and then they left the dance floor and I continued to dance to Sam Ryder. Um, and um, yeah, like I could try and be cool and I could try and say, nah, he is, whatever, but what would that, you know, what, what would I gain? And so I think, yeah, we, we, we, have this tendency because we don't want to be seen to. Be invested in something that someone else is gonna shoot down. And then

[00:25:01] Mark: to have to have that feeling that we're then, we've been cast out. We're not in the in group anymore. It's so much easier if you are not in any in group to say, to not invest in anything. And then you can't really be cast out at that point. No one can turn to you and say, no, that thing's rubbish.

[00:25:18] Anya: well actually it's, I almost wonder whether there's a se greater sense of belonging in poo-pooing something.

[00:25:26] Mark: Mm.

[00:25:26] Anya: actually you will get cast out if you say you like something.

[00:25:30] Mark: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But I think, I think I'm, I'm almost coming from it from the point of view of you sort of belong nowhere if, if you,

[00:25:39] Anya: Mm

[00:25:39] Mark: if you poo poo everything, but by sort of belonging in this nowhere space, you can't be cast out from nowhere. like nowhere is a place that, that you are deciding to, that you belong, but it's a lonely. But it's a safe place, you know? Mm.

[00:25:54] Anya: It is. It is. And I think that is, you

[00:25:57] Mark: Just like things. It's okay. You can just like things.

[00:26:00] Anya: And I think this kind of takes us into the third prompt. Doesn't it really Mark, you know, what happened if you navigated by joy?

[00:26:06] Mark: absolutely.

[00:26:08] Anya: You know, what if you, you, you, you navigated or you listened to the things that you liked, I mean, , one of, I, I'm have various friends over various spectrums, , like both, both of neurodiversity versions and, and sexuality and gender, et cetera. And, you know, part of it has been the vulnerable thing of working out, oh, this makes me happy. Oh, what, what do I do now?

[00:26:38] Mark: This makes me happy. What do I do about it?

[00:26:40] Anya: Yeah, yeah.

[00:26:42] Mark: Oh no.

[00:26:43] Anya: yeah. But, and actually, you know, for some people it can be very difficult to even work out what it is that makes them happy,

[00:26:50] Mark: Yeah.

[00:26:51] Anya: what brings them joy. and so, you know, I love, you know, as I go back to, as I said, you know, the Martha back, Saint, et cetera, et cetera, her. Um, finding your own North Star.

[00:27:02] Anya: She has some wonderful exercises. The first set is kind of like noticing how your essential self says no, which is like full of things. Like, you know, you'll, you'll make a mistake in front of them. You'll forget things, you'll fuck things up, all this sort of thing, and you can feel pretty low at the end of it.

[00:27:19] Anya: So I'm not gonna do that, but I'm gonna read like some of the, some of the examples of. What happens when we are experiencing joy and we are experiencing our full self? And so the idea of, you know, maybe listing three things that can always get you moving. For example, you know, the family's new year party, you know, this is American.

[00:27:40] Anya: So playing pickup basketball or going to the mountains, you know, things that actually make your body, one thing that makes you actually want to go and energy inducing, an energy inducing person, place, or thing. and then you know, what kind of thing actually makes you feel healthier, improves your immune system.

[00:27:59] Anya: occasions, when despite everything, your health was amazing. And then a third one is, you know, memories. when our essential self, when we are unhappy, we may forget things. , having things that we can't help but remember, certain kinds of info types. You know, for me, I am really good at remembering things that interests that people have.

[00:28:27] Mark: Mm.

[00:28:27] Anya: I cannot, I, on my negative list is I cannot remember people's offspring, the name of people's offspring. , I remember the name of their cats, but I can't remember the name of their first born. It's like, it's like I have a mental block on that.

[00:28:45] Anya: But if they tell me that they are interested in, I dunno, Peruvian, no nose flutes or something or whatever, I will remember that kind of information.

[00:28:55] Mark: So you are the kind of person when,

[00:28:58] Mark: when you say that you like one thing, you are, you are, you are the first, you are the seed, you are the patient. Zero of the person who then just sends them like, you know, someone says they like frogs, and then every year, they get something different. It's a pillow with a frog on it or it's a mug with a frog on it. And all they said once is just like, I quite, I quite like Kermit

[00:29:22] Anya: Guilty is charged . But another, and another way of kind of noticing, things that give us joy is, and I'm not gonna go onto the whole list now, I'm gonna code it with this, but this idea of what kind of activities means that time flies, you know, this is going to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's idea of flow.

[00:29:44] Mark: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:45] Anya: you know, this thing of. And that's a, like the sweet spot between our abilities and our competent, you know, our competence, how, how it's a stretch thing. But we are in this zone of time passing of feeling pleasurable, activated. and you know, he talks about micro flow. You know, we've talked about micro joy.

[00:30:09] Mark: Mm.

[00:30:10] Anya: You know, snacks of joy, you know, snacks of flow, you know, these moments which we transcend ourselves. and you know, one, one of our mutual friends, David Papa, is himself trying to, you know, live from a place of being guided by joy. What brings him, you know, brings him life and, and, and aliveness. And I think that's the, there's something that's unle an aliveness about joy. If you think about depression, which is tends to be about a feeling of defeat, a feeling of helplessness.

[00:30:45] Anya: There's a positive ener, there's an energy to joy, a sense of being alive and of of, of having energy. And I think that is, Perhaps one of the key aspects of this is, you know, what, what ignites you? What gives you a pleasurable, you know, if we're going back to Lisa Feldman Barrett and the far and the whole core affect thing, you know, what gives you, what do you want to move towards and gives you a level of activation that you find pleasurable? , and I think those are kind of your, your major clues.

[00:31:22] Mark: That's some homework to be done.

[00:31:24] Anya: Hmm.

[00:31:25] Mark: Well, uh, thank you and um, Uh, one. I have one, one last request of you, um, before I let you go, which is, uh, and, uh, and you, can you read me a poem

[00:31:37] Anya: Well, the thing is, you know, we, we try and have something to close this with and we've got some, you know, we've asked. , you know, a number of prompts through this about actually taking a moment, you know, being intentional and deliberate about increasing our opportunities for joy. We can't do things that necessarily, we can guarantee will trigger it, but we can create opportunities for us to touch the joy that is always within us and.

[00:32:06] Anya: I was thinking of a way to close this episode and thinking, oh, look, sh, should I do a Google search for joy? And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna go with a poem that brings me a huge amount of joy. And it is, uh, warning by Jenny Joseph Rich. If you are a woman of a certain age, is practically, uh, a mantra, a banner, a, a dictum to live by.

[00:32:28] Anya: when I am an old woman. I shall wear purple with a red hat, which doesn't go and doesn't suit me. And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves and sat in sandals and say We've no money for butter. I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired and gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells and run my stick along the public railings and make up for the sobriety of my youth.

[00:32:59] Anya: I go out in my slippers in the rain and pick flowers in other people's gardens and learn to spit. You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat and eat three pounds of sausages as a go or only bread and pickle for a week, and hold pens and pencils and beer mats and things in box. But now we must have clothes that keep us dry and pay our rent and not swear in the street, and set a good example for the children. We must have friends to dinner and read the papers. Maybe I ought to practice a little now so people who know me are not too shocked and surprised and suddenly I'm old and start to wear purple.